Sustainable Winegrowing

by Vineyard Team

5.0(47 reviews)

270 episodes

Updated Daily

Accepts GuestsHas SponsorsLocation 🇺🇸

Overview

Get the latest science and research for the wine industry with Sustainable Wine Growing. Vineyard Team brings you industry professionals and experts on resource issues and business trends related to sustainable agriculture to help you put sustainability into practice.

Language

🇺🇲

Publishing Since

11/3/2016

Visit Website RSS Feed

Reach out to this podcast

Get in touch with the podcast creators

Email Addresses

1 available

Phone Numbers

0 available

Get Full Contact Details

Recent Episodes

April 17, 2025

269: From Surplus to Strategy: Managing the Grape Market’s Challenges

Amid news of oversupply and decreased demand, the wine industry has an opportunity to adapt to the changing market. Audra Cooper, Director of Grape Brokerage, and Eddie Urman, Central Coast Grape Broker at Turrentine Brokerage, discuss key grape and wine industry trends, from oversupply and vineyard removals to the growing necessity of sustainable certification. They explore regional dynamics, bulk wine market shifts, and future trends, emphasizing innovation, industry collaboration, and better marketing to stay competitive. <h2 style="tab-stops: 88.5pt;">Resources: </h2> <ul> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://secure.qgiv.com/for/2025scholarship/event/fungicidespraying/"> REGISTER: 4/5/25 Fungicide Spraying: Evolving Strategies & Grower Insights Tailgate</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.sipcertified.org/info-hub/marketing-tips/details/5-ways-certification-made-you-the-sip-this-year/"> 258: 5 Ways Certification Makes Brands the SIP | Marketing Tip Monday</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.vineyardteam.org/resources/economic-viability.php?id=1131"> 259: Winegrape Market Trends of 2024</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.vineyardteam.org/resources/economic-viability.php?id=1140"> 265: How to Stand Out on Social Media in 2025</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.vineyardteam.org/resources/economic-viability.php?id=1142"> 268: How to Tackle Leadership Transitions Successfully</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.turrentinebrokerage.com/">Turrentine Brokerage</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.turrentinebrokerage.com/newsletter/">Turrentine Brokerage - Newsletter</a></li> </ul> <h2>Vineyard Team Programs:</h2> <ul> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://secure.qgiv.com/for/2025scholarship/">Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.sipcertified.org/get-certified/self-assessment/"> SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet </a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.sustainableagexpo.org/"> Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.vineyardteam.org/resources/resource-library/soil-conservation-and-water-quality.php?id=634"> Vineyard Team – Become a Member</a></li> </ul> <h2>Get More</h2> Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at <a href= "http://www.vineyardteam.org">www.vineyardteam.org</a>. <h2>Transcript</h2> [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Amid news of oversupply and decreased demand, the wine industry has an opportunity to adapt to the changing market. [00:00:11] Welcome to Sustainable Wine, growing with the Vineyard team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. [00:00:22] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates. With Longtime SIP Certified Vineyard, and the first ever SIP certified winery speaks with Audra Cooper, director of Grape Brokerage and Eddie Urman, central Coast Grape Broker At Turrentine Brokerage, [00:00:41] they discuss key grape and wine industry trends from oversupply to vineyard removals to the growing necessity of sustainable certification. They explore regional dynamics, bulk wine market shifts and future trends. Emphasizing innovation, industry collaboration, and better marketing to stay competitive. [00:01:01] If you love infield education and are on California Central Coast on April 25th, 2025, please join us at the fungicide spring tailgate hosted at Cal Poly. In San Luis Obispo, California, Dr. Shunping Ding will share updated results from a 2024 study on fungicide programs using bio fungicides and their impact on grape yield and berry chemistry. Then we'll visit the Cal Poly Vineyard to explore new powdered mildew management technologies and discuss fungicide spraying programs. With farmers from throughout the central coast to register, go to vineyard team.org/events or look for the link in the show notes. [00:01:44] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Audra Cooper. She's Director of Grape Brokerage with Turrentine Brokerage. And also, Eddie Urman, who's Central Coast Grape Broker with Turrentine Brokerage as well. And thanks for coming back. This is part two of a, of a, of an episode here. So, I really appreciate you folks making time to come back. [00:02:00] Audra Cooper: Thank you for having us back. We're excited to join you once again. [00:02:04] Eddie Urman: Yeah, thanks for having us. [00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: So Audra, let's start with you. In our last conversation . [00:02:17] And that was kind of where we left it that then started a conversation amongst the three of us afterward. We were like, okay, there's a lot more to talk about here. So let's do it. [00:02:24] Can you give some examples of what you mean by getting ahead of changes? [00:02:30] Audra Cooper: I think it's a sound business strategy to always try and stay ahead of the curve regardless of what component of business or what industry you're in, right? It's just a, a good strategy to have and a good philosophy to have. It's really important in this industry to continue to stay relevant and in order to stay relevant, you have to stay within the trend or ahead of the trend. [00:02:51] Being behind the eight ball is, never a good thing . You need to be ahead of the curve. A good example of that is sustainable certification. And we still have these discussions on the daily and Eddie, you can talk to this too about how often we have to talk about if you're not sustainably certified, you are cutting your buyer pool, probably roughly in half, as I mentioned in the previous podcast, and you're limiting yourself. [00:03:18] And the majority of the practices, most growers are probably already doing, and they're just not going through the certification process and getting that done. And if you look back a little over a decade ago, it was something that wineries were paying, you know, 25, 50 per ton more for, they were paying a premium. [00:03:36] And then it became more of a, this is really nice to have. And so more and more growers We're doing it as a point of differentiation in their marketing. And now today it's almost a necessity. It's no longer something that's necessarily going to get you a premium price for your grapes. It's also not necessarily a point of differentiation any longer. [00:03:55] It's a need to have. [00:03:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, Eddie, do you have anything to add to that? [00:03:59] Eddie Urman: No, I think that's a great example. , Audra offered up. [00:04:02] Craig Macmillan: So there's, trends around that, and there's a lot of certifications now, and I agree, I think a lot of folks don't need to be afraid of whatever the certification is, because you're probably doing a lot of those things already, a lot of common practices. [00:04:13] I think that's an interesting insight that now it's kind of becoming expected or certainly a requirement for a lot of wineries. [00:04:19] Let's talk about changes in acreage. That's where we left off last time when we were talking about the difference between vineyard removals, which have been suggested, recommended, et cetera, by a number of folks in the industry as we just are in oversupply period I've heard estimates that we may have 30 to 35, 000 acres of grapes, more than we need based on current demand. [00:04:40] how accurate do you think that is? , how bad is it on the supply side? [00:04:45] Audra Cooper: Well, I think you have a couple parts to that question, right? Let's dissect that a little bit and start with, we just got back from the Unified Wine Grape Symposium in Sacramento, and of course, during the State of the Industry, Jeff Bitter gave his annual synopsis of the nursery survey that they do annually on how many vines were sold, and they do a, A lot of data work in regards to what were removals and his number that he reported over the last two years was 37, 500 acres have been removed from the state of California. [00:05:15] He believes based on their research that another 50, 000 acres need to be removed to reach the point of balance, assuming that consumption stays at its current rate or drops just a tiny bit. [00:05:29] And when we look at our information internally, now we don't do a survey like Allied does, but we're tracking a lot of information, both with our winery partners as well as our grower partners in regards to who's doing what, and our number's a little bit higher, but we also go back four years technically going back to 2022, our number for the state of California is closer to about 50, 000 acres that have been removed, and, you know, I would argue that If consumption stays flat, certainly there will need more removals, but I don't know about 50, 000 acres more. [00:06:04] That seems like an awful lot of acres that need to be removed. If his numbers are right, that would put us back to Basically global recession numbers, which would be around 500, 000 acres bearing. [00:06:16] Craig Macmillan: right. in the Grape Crush Report, which is an annual report that's put out by, uh, California Department Of Food and Agriculture and the National Agricultural Statistics Service, there is a non bearing acres section in there, which I always find very interesting. Are we able to glean anything from that data in terms of what's been sold, what we think's gonna go back in, et cetera? [00:06:39] I want to put a timestamp on this. So this is being recorded first week of February, 2025. So the unified was in 2025. The report that's coming out is going to be for the 2024 year. [00:06:48] What can we learn from that non bearing acreage report? [00:06:51] Audra Cooper: So there's two different reports. the acreage report will be coming out a little bit later in the year. We're going to have our crush report come out on February 10. I think you can glean two pieces of information, but both are very similar. And that is how much acreage has actually been removed and how light the crop truly was, particularly in the coastal regions for 2024. [00:07:10] And so when we look at, for example, a 23 bearing and non bearing acreage information from the state of California they're reporting 446, 000 acres of bearing wine grapes. And if you take that at, say, 7 tons an acre, that's 3. 12 million tons. And we know with certainty at 7 tons an acre, That acreage seems pretty low. [00:07:35] It doesn't seem realistic. So unfortunately, because it's a voluntary report when it comes to bearing versus non bearing acres, I do think that the state's probably about two years behind on real data trends. And so unfortunately right now, if you were to use that report as, you know, an analysis of the industry, you'd probably be a bit off. [00:07:54] Craig Macmillan: got it, got it. Are there trends in what varieties are coming out and what varieties are going back in? Because that's often been the driving force for removals and replants, is chasing the marketplace. Are we seeing that kind of thing in California? [00:08:11] Audra Cooper: Yeah, you know, I'll I'll touch on this a little bit and then turn it over to Eddie. It's, it's really difficult to predict in our industry how and what and when to plant, right? Because you are following a trend and a trend that you're going to be lagging behind in trying to meet because of the amount of time it takes to get a crop and a crop that is productive. [00:08:31] And so oftentimes we're abridged, Yeah. Yeah. too far behind in regards to consumer trends. When we look at the central coast as a whole, there's certainly some segmented dynamics on what's being removed versus planted. And, you know, a good place to start, of course, is Paso. Eddie, do you want to talk a little bit more about that? [00:08:51] Eddie Urman: Yeah we do see some trends of, varieties, being pushed out more frequently than others. You know, for the Central Coast, a couple that come to mind are, Zin, Pinot Noir Merlot is one that historically came out. If it's still there, still going out, and then more specifically, old vines is probably the more specific categories. You are seeing a lot of Cab being pushed, that are old vines, but likely to go back into Cab if it gets replanted. [00:09:17] Audra Cooper: that's an interesting trend, because when we're looking at what was purchased based on the survey numbers that Jeff Bitter reported, he was talking about 12, 000 acres being planted based on their survey in 2024, and an overwhelming percentage was still red varietals, which really bucks the trend on what we're seeing observing boots on the ground. [00:09:41] What we've mainly been seeing planted are more alternative whites and niche whites like Grenache Blanc, Pinot Grigio Astrotico, you know, very specific alternative whites in which they're trending with DTC and kind of smaller producers. Certainly we still see some redevelopment of Cabernet as well as Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, not so much on the red blender side or Merlot. [00:10:06] Those seem to be being pulled out and not redeveloped. [00:10:09] Craig Macmillan: Are we seeing any changes or trends around Okay, I'm pushing out Cabernet. I'm going to replant Cabernet. , am I going to replant the same amount of Cabernet? Am I using this as an opportunity to plant new ground? Do we have any information about that kind of thing? [00:10:24] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I mean, to give you hard data would be challenging. I don't know that anyone really has, a hard, fast calculation of what they do and don't do in regards to, the varietal makeup of a redevelopment. And I do want to clarify, I think there's a common misconception, particularly in the coastal regions that This is new net acreage. [00:10:43] It's not new net acreage. A lot of this is redeveloped acreage, but it will be higher in productivity based on, you know, better vines, healthier vines, better spacing, new farming technology, and so forth. And so we'll have new net supply based off that acreage. In full production. When you look at the new developments, though, and it was save paso cab, for example, it's really difficult to say, Oh, well, let's do 50 percent cab and 50 percent red blenders. [00:11:14] I mean, that's a tough decision to make. And you're really making a a pretty risky bet. I think for most people, they're going to plant to the site and also to the trend in the market. And so oftentimes, for example, again, Paso Cab, you're still going to have Cabernet largely go back in on those redevelopments. [00:11:31] When you look at Santa Barbara County, I think they're diversifying a little bit more than they had been in the past. You're not largely just Chardonnay Pinot Cab. You're also seeing alternative reds and whites being planted in that area. Monterey County, when you look at that region, it tends to be a little bit more mixed bag, but still largely chardonnay then in the southern Monterey County area, cabernet and red blenders. [00:11:54] Craig Macmillan: Do you have anything to add to that, Eddie? [00:11:56] Eddie Urman: As far as the rate of what's going back in the ground, you know, in acres. I think as far as East Paso goes Monterey County, Santa Barbara County, we're seeing contraction as far as more acres coming out that are going back. The only area we do see more plantings that are new, it is in the West side of Paso. And it's substantial. I think there's a good amount of acres that have gone in the West side. [00:12:17] Being from the growing side, I think we always wanted to diversify away from Cabernet and Paso Robles specifically, but the reality is the majority of people still want to buy Cabernet. So if anything, I'm worried that growers expect other varieties to try to diversify their portfolio that might not match the demand. [00:12:37] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. And speaking of demand. , we're talking about land and grapes, what's the current state of the, the bulk wine market where you'd expect a lot of the sovers to go where are we kind of at and what do you think are going to be the impacts on the bulk wine market with the replanting? [00:12:53] Audra Cooper: currently right now, listed available with us is about 28 million gallons. We anticipate that it will climb to probably 30, maybe past 30 million gallons at the peak of listing this year, which is typically early summer. In large part, that's still 2023 vintage. However, we do still have some 21, 22, and of course now new 24 is being listed. [00:13:18] The rate of listing is not being eclipsed by the rate of, you know, attrition decline in regards to bulk wine being removed from the market, whether that's through sales or higher and better use internally for those who are listing it. So we still have an off kilter balance there and certainly dramatically an oversupply and that dynamics likely to continue for the next couple of years until we see consumption increase and, and therefore increasing demand for new products. [00:13:45] Typically when we've seen these large increases in availability, what's gotten us out of it is the negotiants who are developing new brands, particularly when we look back to the premiumization sector. We saw a lot of middle tiers, you know, the likes of Duckhorn and Joel Gott and several others who were growing programs that they may have had for a couple of years, but they were very small and they've broadened those to other Appalachians or California and went to the bulk market first to kind of grow those programs before they started grape contracting. [00:14:16] So we're going to need to start seeing that trend in order to clean that market up. [00:14:19] Craig Macmillan: And so that's, that's basically good news, you think, for the bulk wine supply going down the road. [00:14:23] Audra Cooper: I think. In the future, it is in the short term. It's rather painful to have that amount of availability, right? We've been tracking this for the better part of three decades, and there's never been a single calendar year in which we've carried this amount of inventory, particularly going into last harvest, it was the highest inventory we'd ever seen in our tracking. [00:14:44] Keep in mind that this is what's listed available for us. This is not going out and taking inventory of what everyone has in tank that they're not necessarily going to bottle or they don't have a program for. So you can easily maybe double that number and that's what the likely availability is. [00:15:03] Craig Macmillan: Eddie what do you think is going to happen with pricing on on bulk wine? Yeah, I know that you're a specialized in grapes. But obviously those growers are concerned about what's going to happen to those grapes. From the grower side, how attractive is it right now to turn product into bulk wine, do you think? [00:15:21] Eddie Urman: I would say it's very, very, very much not attractive. Uh, we would. Not advocate for that in most scenarios for growers at this time regarding bulk pricing, you know, bulk wine, obviously we have bulk people who have better insight than Audrey, but in general, it's not going to be good. We don't, we don't foresee an increase in price as. we're obviously seeing an increase in supply of bulk wine, that typically is going to still have more downward pressure on price. And as far as growers bulking wine, it's, I think, a very risky game right now. You know, bulk wine does have a life expectancy, to Audra's point earlier. And, know, if you bulk it now, you have to sell it eventually to make your money back. [00:16:02] And then on top of that, you have to carry those costs with today's interest rates. [00:16:06] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. So, prices for bulk wine right now, I'm guessing have been on the decline for probably a couple of years. Is that accurate? [00:16:13] Audra Cooper: Yeah, that's an accurate statement. If I were to really think about how long they've been on the decline, I would say probably mid, mid calendar year 2023 is when we start to see the downturn of the market be very, you know, impactful on pricing and overall demand. And of course, increasing inventory is really when that trend started. [00:16:34] I want to kind of go back to what Eddie was talking about regarding you know growers making bulk wine and and how risky that is, you know, we have a saying internally and it's so Elementary, but it's so applicable to these times. Your first loss is typically your best loss or your least loss and so it's really important when you're looking at alternative to market Whether or not you're actually going to be able to optimize how much investment you have in that product, and more often than not, when you're making grapes into bulk wine as a grower, you're not going to have the wherewithal to compete with a competitive set, other wineries, or large growers whose business models incorporate making bulk wine as a producer. [00:17:15] So you really end up being on the losing end of that game. [00:17:19] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, do you see price pressure on growers? Are prices being negotiated down or contracts being changed or not renewed? And if so, does that vary by region, do you think? I know you specialize in the Central Coast, but just from what you know. [00:17:34] Eddie Urman: I think for the Central Coast, it's easy to say that there's still unfortunately more cancellations or evergreens being called and their contracts being executed. There is some activity of people being willing to look at stuff and even make offers, which is good news, but typically it's at a lower pricing. [00:17:51] Craig Macmillan: This is for both of you if I'm a grower and I'm facing this situation both what I can get for my price and then also what the chances are of me selling my stuff on the bulk market, is this a situation where we're maybe better off not harvesting all the crop or mothballing some vineyards for the short term? [00:18:08] Eddie Urman: Yeah, I mean, I think in general, the less we pick this upcoming season that doesn't have a home, you know, the better off if it's picked for, uh, a program where it's actually needed, that's great, but bulking one on spec or taking in more fruit because it's cheap or very, you know, very low cost is not going to be a good thing. good overall thing for the industry. [00:18:30] As far as mothballing, we've talked a lot internally. This is where the conversation came in last time about making tough decisions and being intentional about how you're going to farm or you plant going into the season as a grower is, you know, mothballing is very controversial. [00:18:45] I think for our team, as far as whether it truly works and can you truly come back after it's done, if you're mothballing a Vineyard that's at the end of his life expectancy. You're probably just delaying your pain one more year. Cause it probably will not come back. If you're mothballing a five year old vineyard, maybe it's something that's a different story, but a real tough decision. [00:19:06] Mothballing a young producing vineyard most people are not in that situation. [00:19:12] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I mean, I want to expand a little bit on the, the mothballing and not harvesting fruit. I think it's really important that, you know, while this is a rather negative time in the industry and it's really easy to be very pessimistic. I do want to be optimistic about the needed outcomes and the solutions and the pain that's still rather prevalent in our industry to get kind of to the other side of being healthy. [00:19:36] I do want to be optimistic about some of the newer plantings that we've seen basically since 2012. There is a lot of new to middle aged vineyards that I really hope continue to stay in the ground. They need to stay in the ground because they are the highest and best fit for some of the newer style products in wine. [00:19:54] And we need to be able to continue to keep our wine quality elevated. And so while certainly there's vineyards that need to be removed or, or mothballed and taken out of production, there's also the flip side of that where there's a huge need for some of the. better vineyards and the more sought after vineyards or the vineyards that are priced right for the program that they're going into. [00:20:16] So this is kind of a double edged sword in the sense that yeah, we need plenty of production to be pulled out of the supply chain, but at the same time there's a huge need for very specific supply. So I want to be very careful in classifying those items. [00:20:30] Craig Macmillan: Right. And that brings me to my next question Audra there must be regional differences. Yeah. Yeah. In these patterns, I would assume some areas maybe are a little bit more protected from this kind of contraction or, or expansion over supply and others probably really bearing the brunt. I would guess. Do you see patterns at the state level? [00:20:48] Audra Cooper: I see patterns at the state level, but I can even bring it down to the central coast, even so far down to like even Paso right now. And Eddie and I have been talking about this a lot. You know, we saw a huge uptick in available inventory for east side AVA Cabernet and red blenders and even some of the white. Over the last two years, particularly last year in 2024, [00:21:11] and now we're seeing that dynamic shift from the east side climbing and available inventory. And now the west side is where we're seeing most of our listings come from over the last couple of weeks. And so we're now seeing it kind of push into more of the premium luxury tiers as far as this oversupply and the contraction and the kind of the pain points. [00:21:29] And so we are moving through the channels. Which I know again is, is difficult to hear and it's a very negative position to be in the industry, but it's also a sign that the market and the supply chain is moving through what it needs to move towards in order to come out the other side of this thing on a healthier end. [00:21:48] We comment on this a lot where. You know, it's going to get worse, dramatically worse for a short period of time before it gets better. And we're starting to see kind of the beginning of that position. [00:21:58] Craig Macmillan: What about the San Joaquin Valley? San Joaquin Valley? [00:22:02] Audra Cooper: is actually typically leading the charge in regards to our market, particularly our supply aspect of things, both in grapes and bulk wine. And so when we see A retraction in our industry or oversupply. We typically see it in the interior of the central valley first And when we see kind of a new, Growth stage we see it over there first as well And so they're ahead of us by one to two years Currently and then it kind of follows into the central coast and then up into the north coast and what i've seen Historically when you look back at markets and you look at kind of the time horizons of these things how? Long they live and what pushes the momentum of these markets. You'll typically see it last longer in the Central Valley, tiny bit shorter in the Central Coast and a lot shorter in the North Coast. The North Coast usually doesn't see quite as long of a pain period as the other two regions do. And there's, there's a lot of reasons that we probably shouldn't get into today because it would be a whole nother topic of conversation. [00:23:00] But I do think that the Central Coast right now has got another challenging year ahead of it. But also I think that the on ramp to a more positive industry is a little shorter than what I think people are giving credit for too because a lot of the work is being done, we just got to get through these major pain points first. [00:23:19] Craig Macmillan: We know that consumers drive demand for wine and hence wine grapes but are there other economic forces or political forces or regulatory forces that put pressure on this grape market aside from just consumer demand? [00:23:32] Eddie Urman: again, but 1 of big 1s is, put, it could put pressure to the positive or negative on our industry. We don't really know yet. It's still to be determined. when I read this question, the other thing came to mind to me is, is from a grower's perspective ensuring that you're growing. The compatible correct grapes for your region or varieties or it's staying within where you need to be. If the market for, for example, Chardonnay went through, went to the moon, it doesn't mean everyone in Paso should plant Chardonnay, [00:24:00] even though that's the hot variety, right? [00:24:02] It wouldn't be the best variety for most areas of Those are some of the quicker things that come to my mind. I'll probably elaborate. [00:24:10] Audra Cooper: I think to expand upon that, certainly regulations regarding, you know, water usage and irrigation is is a huge factor. And, and Eddie, you could probably do an entire podcast on that particular topic. And I'm sure that you guys have actually, Craig in addition to that, you really look at the economic environment in which people are growing grapes and producing wine. [00:24:32] And the economy of it is getting, you know, more and more difficult. The margins are getting much smaller. You can argue that more often than not people are taking losses year over year. And that puts a ton of pressure on their cash flow. In addition to that, when you look at the lending environment as well, that's become a lot more say, non conducive to being able to continue with business. In a lot of cases, [00:24:57] we have a handful of clients, if not more, who are questioning, do I prune because I don't necessarily have the same operational loan that I've had over the last couple of years and I've been taking low grape prices in order to survive to the following year, but you can only do that so long before it catches up to you. [00:25:14] And then we have another group or another segment of clientele who will prune, but may end up having to throw in the towel sometime, you know, mid summer or sooner because they don't have enough capital to continue with the grapes or you know, not sold. And then you look at the producer side on the winery side, and, and they too are getting crunched. [00:25:32] You know, we often talk about how low grape prices are, but we forget that, you know, wineries are getting crunched on their bottle price as well in order to nationally distribute. You know, what you see on the shelf as a price point does not necessarily mean that that's a price point to that producer. So the economies of this industry are getting more and more difficult every single year. [00:25:52] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, especially, are you seeing trends towards things like mechanization to try to keep costs down? [00:25:58] Eddie Urman: Yeah, absolutely. I mean mechanization and then automation and the vineyard or two, the , you know, hottest topics so here. And people were definitely making the efforts to try to implement those as they come available. The difficult thing can be oftentimes it's investment in equipment. That's very expensive and you have to truly consider is it going to, is it economically feasible to invest in that equipment and what's the payout time going to be based upon the amount of acres you're farming or how many passes you can do with that piece of equipment. So we're, we're seeing it happen, which is great. [00:26:31] It's innovation and it's heading us in the right direction, but at this point, a lot of it is still quite expensive and not everyone could participate for cost reasons. Yeah. [00:26:41] Craig Macmillan: Going forward, we've talked about this a little bit in terms of how different regions are kind of more paying for longer and some a little bit less and et cetera. And this then translates into the wines that are out there. Audra, you'd mentioned you know, the potential of negotiants to come in and help to alleviate the market. [00:26:59] That's definitely what happened in the nineties from my memory. We saw a lot of negotiate brands pop up because there was a plentiful supply for some of those years. Are there things that companies or government or grower associations, are there things that organizations could do to advise growers or help move people in the right direction in terms of kind of what they need to do? Is the viticulture consulting community? Taking these things into account Eddie, let's start with you, [00:27:29] Eddie Urman: that's a big question. there are plenty of people giving good advice in the industry and growers do have resources to reach out to, but it's very difficult to hear information that doesn't. Align with what you would like to do, right? So taking out our emotions from this from the equation and say, okay, does it really make sense to do this or to do that? Where where's that going to leave us and is that going to be in a position? To move forward in a better, know in a better new industry or new, you know New time in this industry when things rebound there's information out there, but it is difficult extremely difficult right now for growers and wineries to make decisions [00:28:09] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. That's the challenge when you have something like this, where it's individual decisions that lead to mass outcomes. It's hard for me as an individual to say, okay, well, I'm going to do my part. I'm going to keep these 10 acres out of production. Especially when I can see that I could sell to somebody. It's a tough go. Go ahead, Audra. [00:28:24] Audra Cooper: So I'm gonna go off on a tangent here a little bit. [00:28:26] Craig Macmillan: do. [00:28:28] Audra Cooper: I don't know, you might not welcome this one. So, you know, some people know this about me. I'm a pretty big Tony Robbins fan. And, You know, for some of you who don't know who that is, he's a self help guru that does a lot of different events and has written a lot of books and he has a philosophy and a saying that he utilizes through most of events, which is where focus goes, energy flows. [00:28:51] And unfortunately, we have not done the best of jobs being positive about ourselves in the industry, out there in the media, that ultimately is consumed by the masses. And so, I've been on this huge bandwagon about, when we're talking to the media, obviously we need to be rooted in reality, but we need to be as optimistic as we can about who we are and what our why is. [00:29:16] And I think oftentimes when we have these downturns, and this one's a pretty deep one, admittedly. That's the rooted in reality, right? But in these downturns, we tend to turn very, very pessimistic and we fail to remember that to some degree or another. We've been here before, and there have been a lot of innovations and activities and work and leadership that have pulled us out of it, and so we need to remember our history a little bit, I think would be my recommendation there, and I think a lot of the associations do a great job In reminding everyone what the historical background is and in some of our why Paso Robles Wine Country Alliance is a great example of what an association can do for a region on a national and international level. [00:30:03] I will continue to sing their praises because I think they've done a beautiful job in what they've done over the last 15 years. When you look at You know, what's happening from a government and regulation standpoint, you know, we have to band together as a community and be loud voices. We can't just rely on our neighbor or our representative to be our representative voice. [00:30:25] We need to make sure that we continue to be out there and loud. The other thing too is. We have a community, but we have a tendency to not keep collaboration consistent, and I would love to see our industry collaborate a little bit more, particularly on social media. I know that there's a lot of people probably listening to this right now thinking, why is social media even a remote solution? [00:30:48] But the amount of consumption from the younger generation that are now of drinking age that have not adopted wine as a beverage of choice, consume a huge amount of social media, more than they do TV, more than they do reading, more than any other culture. aspect of information gathering or any other platform that's available to them. [00:31:10] And we have an opportunity to band together and collaborate and change the algorithm regarding wine on social media. And I love to see us do that. We haven't done it. And there's various methods of doing that. And again, could probably be another podcast. I'm by no means the foremost expert on that, but our collaborative efforts. [00:31:27] We'll just drop that because I don't even remember exactly [00:31:30] Craig Macmillan: I think that's sound advice And it's always been a challenge. We do have some statewide Organizations that have that mission. They have a lot on their plate But I agree with you. I think that that is definitely the route or it seems to be the route There's more more research coming out that's showing that Not just the time but also like where people get their news You know, it shows you how important that is to them, how important , that venue is to them. [00:31:55] Eddie Urman: 1 of the things for me to extrapolate on that a little bit. What Audra was talking about is unified at the industry hot topics. Um. Rock mcmillan talked for a minute. The ceo of silicon bank about the wine industry Not itself and taking market share from itself, but taking market share from wine from beer from spirits They've clearly done that to us. [00:32:18] I mean It's a competition. It is what it is, and we've not done a great job marketing To younger, younger generations, everybody knows that everybody repeats it, but what are we going to do about it? And how can we as an industry figure out how to do a better job getting people exposed to wine, getting people to enjoy wine? [00:32:37] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I like that, Eddie. It's time to get aggressive and it's time to re enter wine in the conversation of culture and being part of the daily lifestyle. We've let it kind of fall by the wayside and it's time to get aggressive about what wine can be and was and should be here in the near future. [00:32:57] Craig Macmillan: right. You'd mentioned, you know, what's happened in the past. Audra, are there lessons that we learned that we are forgetting from 20 years ago or lessons that we should have learned 20 years ago that might help us now? [00:33:11] Audra Cooper: it's, that's an interesting question, and I think it is a great question of merit, because history does tend to repeat itself I think we need to get better about predictive trends, and I don't know what the answer is to that, I just know that we need to do that and again, we, we kind of talked about it early in the podcast here that, you know, it's really hard to plant a trend, because you're usually behind the eight ball on it. [00:33:38] And I think that we need to get better about how we plan for the future. I think we forget that, you know, Robert Mondavi and the Gallo's and, and countless others who came before us really went out. To the masses and marketed wine, not just their brands or their programs. They were out there to make sure that they were representing the wine industry and the product that we produce first and foremost. [00:34:06] And so I think there's that element. It's not necessarily missing, but it's not loud enough and it's not aggressive enough. And so we definitely need some leaders to come forward in that regard and really push the initiatives. That we fought so hard to stay in business for. When you look back historically to, I think we have a tendency to kind of do the blame game a little bit. [00:34:28] Like, you've planted too much over there on the coast and you've removed too much of the northern interior and you're charging too much up there in the north coast. And the reality is there's a place. For everyone to play and instead of being the competitive set that we are, again, to Eddie's point that Rob McMillan made as state of the industry, we should be looking at how do we take market share from our competitors, which are beer and spirits, RTDs, and so forth, not from each other. [00:34:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It sounds like it's a time when we need to see some new leadership step up or some folks to take leadership roles which is always kind of scary. [00:35:08] Audra Cooper: It is. It's, it's, you know, here's the, the beautiful thing about emotion though. It's usually a call to action. So if we get scared enough. Someone will do something and I think we're just about there, and, and there's probably people working in the shadows that we're not aware of that will probably come forward here soon, you know, there's great leadership at CAWG level with their association as well as the Wine Institute, they're working hard every single day to be lobbyists , for our industry and to be making sure that they're representing our issues and finding solutions, solutions. [00:35:40] You know, one of the big things that I've learned over the last couple of years, particularly this last year, is, is that we are all responsible for our future and making sure our future is compelling. And so we need to be supporting those associations and paying attention to the relevancy of the information that's out there. [00:35:55] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's excellent. This is a, again, kind of a, kind of a tangent and it may not lead anywhere, but I, I just had this thought. You were talking about sustainability certifications and how important they are for growers now. Do you think that communicating the sustainability story of wineries and probably done at an individual level and then spreading out from there do you think consumers would respond to that? [00:36:17] Eddie Urman: Yeah it's hard to say because marketing is not my forte, but I, it sure seems like with the trends as far as health conscious and all this, I think it would resonate with them. It really should. And it's something we should probably capitalize on more as an industry in general. Yeah. [00:36:33] Craig Macmillan: That's interesting. Well do you have, does anybody have like a final message or one thing you would tell growers on this topic? Audra, [00:36:40] Audra Cooper: Well, we covered a lot of topics today, and I think I'll leave everyone with the same thing I said earlier, Where focus goes, energy flows, and if we're focused on the negative, and we're focused on how tough the industry is right now, that's where we're going to be. If we're focused on solutions, we'll find one that works, and it's going to be different for everyone. [00:37:04] Everyone's solution may look a little bit different. This is both an individual and industry wide issue that we're facing currently. with the downturn in the industry and the extreme oversupply. But I have faith that the work that's already being done will pull us out of this. We just need to get innovative in how we market to new consumers. [00:37:26] Craig Macmillan: That's great. Where can people find out more about you folks? [00:37:29] Eddie Urman: on our website. , you can get our information on there and reach out and contact us. Anything else Audra. Right. [00:37:44] Audra Cooper: Year you can go to our social media Turrentine Brokerate or you can find me at GrapeBroker on Instagram. You can also call us or email us or text us if you'd like, or smoke signal us too, although please don't carry fires. [00:37:50] Craig Macmillan: Anyway, right. Well, thank you so much. I guess today we're Audrey Cooper she is a director of great brokerage at Turrentine. Brokerage and Eddie Urman, who is the central coast, great broker Turrentine. Thank you both for being here and having such an interesting conversation. It's an important topic with a lot of question marks, lots and lots of questions, but I think we had some good things come out of it and I really appreciate it. [00:38:11] Audra Cooper: All right. Thank you. [00:38:17] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by wonderful laboratories. Wonderful laboratories. Operates two state of the art high throughput laboratories to support pathogen detection and nutrient analysis. The team provides full service support to customers with field sampling, custom panels, and special projects. Their customers include pest control advisors, growers, consultants, seed companies, backyard gardeners, researchers, and more. [00:38:45] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Turntine brokerage. Their previous interview on the Sustainable Winegrowing podcast, that's number 259, wine Grape Market Trends for 2024, plus other sustainable wine growing podcast episodes, including 265. How to stand out on social media in 2025 and 268 how to tackle leadership transitions successfully. [00:39:10] If you'd like this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. [00:39:16] You can find all of the [email protected]/podcast and you can reach us at [email protected]. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard team. Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

March 24, 2025

267: Your Green Wine Glossary | Marketing Tip Monday

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: A label can provide a lot of information about a wine. The next time you walk down the wine aisle, look for common terms and symbols like vintage, place of origin, percent alcohol, and even the SIP certified logo. [00:00:12] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:29] Many labeling requirements in the United States are defined by the Code of Federal Regulations. In this week's marketing tip, we are giving you a green wine glossary. Five common wine designations, defined, so you'll wonder no longer. [00:00:45] Number one is vegan. Not every wine fits the vegan lifestyle. During the winemaking process, small particles can cause haziness or unwanted flavor properties. Winemakers can add a fining agent that will bind to these tiny particles and make them large enough to be filtered out. Many fining agents are animal based. Egg whites, casein, and gelatin. Wine that was fined with any of these materials cannot be considered vegan. Vegan wines include those that were either fined with a non animal based agent. Like bentonite clay, or not find at all. [00:01:19] Number two is natural. There is no official or regulated definition of natural wine. That being said, most understand it as a wine that was made through a minimal intervention, no additive approach. Natural wines are fermented with native yeasts versus adding yeast. They cannot be filtered or fined, nor can winemaking additives be used, except for a small amount of sulfur pre bottling. If you are told that the wine you're drinking is natural, remember to ask what it means. [00:01:48] Number three is organic. Wine must meet several requirements in order to be labeled as an organic wine. The vineyard must be certified organic, the winemaking process must be certified organic, and the final product must contain at least 95 percent organic ingredients, no additives, and no preservatives. Please note that wine made with organic grapes are not the same as organic wines. While this definition means that a hundred percent of the grapes used were certified organic, Other ingredients in the wine do not have to be organic, but do note that they cannot be genetically engineered. Another thing to keep in mind is that organic designation varies between countries. [00:02:25] Number four is biodynamic. The biodynamic farming principle is guided by nature's rhythms and the understanding that the vineyard is a self contained ecosystem where all elements live and work together. Like organic, synthetic inputs are prohibited in biodynamic farming. But unlike any other program, the timing of biodynamic practices aligns with the lunar and celestial cycles. This is because of the belief that moon phases in planetary positions affect the flow of sap and energy in the vines, and that there is value in keeping practices in sync with these forces. Demeter International is the most recognized certification body for biodynamic wines. For a wine to bear the seal, the grapes must be grown in adherence to the biodynamic principles, and the wine must be made through certified biodynamic processes. [00:03:12] And number five is sustainable in agriculture. Sustainability means adhering to practices that protect social and environmental health while enhancing economic vitality. sustainably grown grapes are farmed similarly to organic and biodynamic grapes. All programs seek to protect human and environmental health through reducing inputs and conserving. And regenerating natural resources where sustainability differs is that it looks beyond the farm and into the business itself, including worker safety, community relationships, continuing education and accounting and budgeting, just to name a few of the areas that certification bodies like SIP certified address in the standards. Certification also extends from the vineyard and into the winery. [00:03:55] Did you know that your wine can include the SIP certified seal on the label if it's made with 85 percent SIP certified fruit, whether it is estate or purchased? Simply go to SIP certified. org to apply today. So your customers will know that your wine was made through practices that protect the people and the planet. [00:04:13] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team. <h1>Resources:</h1> <ul> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://vineyardteam.thinkific.com/courses/sustainable-story">*** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course ***</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://youtu.be/OswoIn9gzDk?si=rt5qi3GBsUhOZmSu">Apply for SIP Certified Wine</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.sipcertified.org/mailing-list/">Marketing Tips eNewsletter</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "http://www.sipcertified.org/files/Sustainable%20Stories/Our%20Sustainable%20Story_FOR%20PRINT.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Sustainable Story | Print</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "http://www.sipcertified.org/files/Sustainable%20Stories/Our%20Sustainable%20Story_FOR%20ELECTRONIC%20FILLING.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Sustainable Story | Electronic</a></li> </ul> <h2>Vineyard Team Programs:</h2> <ul> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://secure.qgiv.com/for/2025scholarship/">Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.sipcertified.org/get-certified/self-assessment/"> SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet </a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.sustainableagexpo.org/"> Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.vineyardteam.org/resources/resource-library/soil-conservation-and-water-quality.php?id=634"> Vineyard Team – Become a Member</a></li> </ul>

March 20, 2025

266: Soft Pesticide Trial: Powdery Mildew, Downy Mildew, Botrytis, and Sour Rot

Managing pests like powdery mildew, downy mildew, botrytis, and sour rot can be complex. Andy Fels, Vineyard Manager at Shady Lane Cellars in Michigan, shares insights from his USDA Sustainable Ag Research Education producer grant project. The project compares two pest management approaches: a soft pesticide program and a conventional one. Andy experimented using his on-farm sprayer, providing real-world results. The soft pesticide program proved effective despite climate variability and fluctuating pest pressures. The project underscores the potential of using softer chemistries to manage disease while maintaining fruit quality. <h2 style="tab-stops: 88.5pt;">Resources: </h2> <ul> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://secure.qgiv.com/for/tailgates/event/fungicide-spraying/">REGISTER: April 25, 2025 | Fungicide Spraying: Evolving Strategies & Grower Insights</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.vineyardteam.org/resources/resource-library/pest-management.php?id=844"> 80: (Rebroadcast) The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.vineyardteam.org/resources/resource-library/pest-management.php?id=910"> 117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.vineyardteam.org/resources/resource-library/pest-management.php?id=1055"> 197: Managing the Sour Rot Disease Complex in Grapes</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.vineyardteam.org/resources/resource-library/pest-management.php?id=1084"> 219: Intelligent Sprayers to Improve Fungicide Applications and Save Money</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.vineyardteam.org/podcast/?id=1104">235: Battling Fungicide Resistance with Glove Sampling</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.canr.msu.edu/people/rufus_isaacs">Rufus Issacson, Michigan State University</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://wineindustryadvisor.com/2024/04/09/shady-lane-cellars-secures-11k-national-farming-grant/"> Shady Lane Cellars Secures $11K National Farming Grant</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.canr.msu.edu/people/timothy-miles">Timothy Miles, Michigan State University</a></li> </ul> <h2>Vineyard Team Programs:</h2> <ul> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://secure.qgiv.com/for/2025scholarship/">Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.sipcertified.org/get-certified/self-assessment/"> SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet </a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.sustainableagexpo.org/"> Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year</a></li> <li class="MsoNormal"><a href= "https://www.vineyardteam.org/resources/resource-library/soil-conservation-and-water-quality.php?id=634"> Vineyard Team – Become a Member</a></li> </ul> <h2>Get More</h2> Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at <a href= "http://www.vineyardteam.org">www.vineyardteam.org</a>. <h2>Transcript</h2> [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Managing pests like powdery mildew, downy mildew, botrytis and sour rot can be a complex challenge. [00:00:10] Welcome to sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. [00:00:21] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates. With Longtime SIP Certified Vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery speaks with Andy Fels, vineyard Manager at Shady Lane Cellars in Michigan. Andy shares insights from his USDA Sstainable Ag Research Education Producer grant project. The project compares to pest management approaches, a soft pesticide program and a conventional one. [00:00:50] Andy conducted the experiment using his on farms sprayer, providing real world results. Despite climate variability and fluctuating pest pressures, the soft pesticide program proved effective. The project underscores the potential of using softer chemistries to manage disease while maintaining fruit quality. [00:01:10] If you'd like to learn more about this topic, then we hope you can join us on April 25th, 2025 for the fungicide spraying evolving strategies in Grower Insights tailgate taking place in San Luis Obispo, California. Dr. Shunping Ding of Cal Poly will share updated results from a study on the efficacy of different fungicide programs containing bio fungicides. [00:01:34] Then we will head out into the vineyard to learn about new technologies for integrated pest management and talk with farmers from different growing regions about their program. Now let's listen in. [00:01:49] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Andy Fels. He is the vineyard manager at Shady Lane Cellars in Michigan. And today we're going to talk about a pretty cool little project. He's got going looking into two different pesticide programs. Thanks for being on the podcast, Andy. [00:02:03] Andrew Fels: Yeah, my pleasure, Craig. [00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: So you have a grant from the USDA sustainable agriculture research and education program. To look at what you call a soft pesticide program for your vineyard in Michigan and comparing it to what we would call a sustainable or sustainable conventional program. What do you define as a soft pesticide program? [00:02:25] Andrew Fels: Well, that's kinda just a, a term that we applied to identify it. I didn't want to use organic because I thought that there would be a good chance we would utilize things that are considered by the industry to be very soft in terms of you know, they're not a harsh chemical or a carcinogenic, a known carcinogenic compound. [00:02:49] But something, for example, like. Like horticultural grade peroxide, which goes by several different trade names. So that's just, it's hydrogen peroxide and it is a disinfectant that turns into water and oxygen. So it's pretty Soft in terms of what it does to beneficials and, and plants and, and such. [00:03:11] We utilize some of those products already in our spray program. But combined also with, we're probably 50 percent organic in terms of what we spray out. for fungicides, pesticides, insecticides. And so we're still altering in some synthetic compounds. [00:03:28] And we wanted to compare that, what we currently do, to something that was much softer, like only soft compounds. Something that could be considered a OMRI certified organic program, or, or almost, right? Like maybe there's just one or two things that are very soft, but not technically OMRI certified. [00:03:49] Craig Macmillan: Right, and I do want to , get into the weeds on that a little bit later. Cause it's a, it's an interesting, Set a program that you've got going and I have lots of questions about them. What inspired this project? [00:04:01] Andrew Fels: I think just that continued movement towards investigating what works here in the east. You know, we, of course, get more wetting events and, and wetting periods that cause more fungal issues here compared to the west coast. And so we really, you know, we have to have an eye on sustainability. Certainly at Shady Lane, we really push for that. [00:04:25] But we also need to make sure that we have a marketable crop. We need to make sure the wine quality is, is high and acceptable for our standards. And so you know, if we're talking about, you know, every year is quite different here. We can get a, like, for example, in 2024, very wet in the first half of the year, very, very dry in the second half. [00:04:51] And, and then, which was quite different from 23 and quite different from 22 and so on and so forth. so, so some years we need to kind of step in and use a synthetic product here at this key time or, you know we need to protect our, our, our wine grape quality. [00:05:07] Craig Macmillan: What are the primary pests and diseases in your area? [00:05:11] Andrew Fels: So we have issues with the usual suspects that powdery mildew, of course. That's, that's fairly, I think if you're on top of your game, that's, it's pretty controllable. Even with soft products here it's just a spray frequency and coverage issue. [00:05:27] Downy mildew is something that can be quite challenging in certain years. [00:05:31] And there's, and there's less tools in the toolbox to use for that as well. And so you gotta, you gotta be on top of that with scouting preventative, like canopy, you know, canopy management practices that deter too dense of a canopy or, or clusters that are. hidden behind several layers of leaf. [00:05:53] Those are going to cause problems for you no matter what you're spraying, synthetic or organic, right? So, so we try and utilize all those things and and then we, we can also have issues in some years with botrytis and even sour rot and tight clustered varieties. So, so we were looking at sour rot and botrytis in the, in the cluster analysis of this portion of the , project. [00:06:18] Yeah, we have some locations can struggle with grape erinium mite. That's becoming more and more prevalent here. Wasn't an issue four years ago. Not, not really up in, up in northern Michigan anyway. So that's becoming more and more of an issue. And then we always struggle with rose chafers. It's a, it's a grub that, you know, comes out for six weeks and really terrorizes the vines. [00:06:49] And for that, for that pest, we really walk the line of the economic damage threshold, right? So, so a little, you know, we're going to see rose chafers every year. Some years are better than others. And what is our acceptable damage, you know? And so, once we see the rose chafers really getting dense in number, and also, you know, munching on a few leaves is one thing, munching on the clusters and the shoot tips is another thing. [00:07:21] Craig Macmillan: That's what I was going to ask. Yeah, I'm unfamiliar with this this pest. It, skeletonizes leaves, but it also will attack flower clusters and, and grape clusters in the early stages of development. Is that right? [00:07:34] Andrew Fels: Pretty much all green tissue. Yeah, a bunch of shoot, shoot tips leaves are probably, you know, their preferred source, I think, but anything tender. And so if, if the timing is just right where the, the inflorescences are, are you know, just coming out when the, when the beetles hatch, then they can really go for those cluster tips and, and shoot tips. [00:07:59] While we're scouting for this pest, we not only do the, you know, the density numbers and annotate that, but we look at, you know, how many are actually eating leaves versus shoot tips and clusters. [00:08:13] Craig Macmillan: Interesting, interesting. What is the design of your project and what varieties are we talking about? And what kind of variables are you measuring and how are you measuring them? [00:08:25] Andrew Fels: this is a farmer grant as opposed to a research grant. , it's tailored to folks that want to do on, on farm trials. And we want to do. Something in a significant enough volume, you know, that, that some that it would apply, it would be more applicable in the real world. [00:08:45] So for example you know, at a university they might do this randomized plots, you know, and they're using a backpack sprayer because they're, they're applying you know, three vines here, three vines there, scattered all throughout the block. And we wanted to use the sprayer that we actually use. [00:09:04] Um, and we wanted to do a bigger sections. And so what we did was we broke it up into two acre sections and we did two acres of both the traditional, the conventional program that we normally would do here and the soft treatment. So we did two acres of each in pinot noir, two acres of each in a, in a French American hybrid called ol, and then two acres of Riesling. [00:09:33] And we wanted to look at powdery, downy, botrytis, and sour rot. [00:09:38] In certain years, we can have quite a lot of botrytis and sour rot pressure in those three varieties. Because Pinot Noir of course is tight clustered. Vignole is even tighter clustered despite having that French American disease resistance package. It, it doesn't possess that for Botrytis or Sour Rot. [00:09:58] and then of course Riesling is a, is a very, it's probably the number one variety in Michigan. And as we all know, it's susceptible to Botrytis. [00:10:08] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Big time. [00:10:10] Nice design. Great varieties to choose. I think that was really, really smart. How are you going to quantify these different variables? How are you going to measure the damage? [00:10:18] Andrew Fels: So for Powdery and Downey we just kind of did a scouting assessment. You know, how, prevalent is the infection based on how many leaves per, per per scouting event? I think off the top of my head, it was like 25 leaves. Per block that's more, I guess, anecdotal which we, and we did see that in the Pinot Noir, it was pretty clear cut that we struggled to control Downy in the soft treatment more so than in the conventional treatment. [00:10:50] It was, it was pretty clear there. And then as far as the Botrytis and Sour Rot, so that's really where the MSU team came in with the, the Rufus Isaacs lab and Dr. Rufus Isaacs and his master's PhD candidate. They did a lot of work there and, and then also the Tim Miles lab , so basically what they did is they took 25 clusters of each treatment and they did an assessment , for of course, how many berries were infected by, by botrytis and sour rot. [00:11:25] And then they also took those clusters and they hatched them out to see how many Drosophila species were there. [00:11:33] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. Yeah, good. That's interesting. [00:11:36] Andrew Fels: Wing drosophila here in Michigan and so really it was just the two species of traditional vinegar fly, drosophila, and then spotted wing. They did, you know, the, the statistics on that. [00:11:50] Craig Macmillan: interesting. And this is, this is a multi year project, right? [00:11:54] Andrew Fels: This was just one year. [00:11:56] Craig Macmillan: Just one year, okay. [00:11:58] And when will you have final results? [00:12:01] Andrew Fels: I have some of those already. We're going to do like a more formal presentation at a spring meeting here, a grower meeting, that's kind of co sponsored between MSU Extension and a local non profit that promotes grape and wine production in the area. So yeah, we're going to make a presentation in April on on the results and, and kind of, we're just continuing to, coalesce and, you know, tie my spray program with wedding events and then the results that they got as well. [00:12:37] Craig Macmillan: What other kinds of outreach are you doing? You're doing the meeting and you're doing other things? [00:12:41] Andrew Fels: I haven't discussed this with with Rika Bhandari as the PhD student. I suspect that she would use this in some of her publishing, you know, whether it gets published, I don't know, it's part of her Her main focus is sour rot, so this will be included in some of her presentations. [00:13:03] But I don't know that for a fact. [00:13:06] Craig Macmillan: That's exciting to get some information that's local. It's locally based and get it out to the local community as well as the broader community. I think that's really important if you don't mind I would like to get into some of the nuts and bolts of these two programs because I found that to be very interesting And then as we go talk about How that panned out for the different pests and diseases that you saw in these trials Let's talk about the soft program first You've got a dormant oil app in May and I assume you mean that there would be like JMS stylet oil or something like that [00:13:41] Andrew Fels: I think it was called bio cover. [00:13:43] Craig Macmillan: Bio cover and that's a pretty standard practice in your area I would guess [00:13:48] Andrew Fels: It is, yeah. [00:13:49] Craig Macmillan: and then the following month in June You, uh, have copper in the mix. In both the traditional and in the soft chemistry. I'm guessing that's also a common practice in your area. Probably for downy and for powdery. [00:14:06] Andrew Fels: Yeah, the copper is is something that we've been leaning towards and getting away from some of the synthetics. Which stick better to plant surfaces, we've been migrating that way anyway, these last numerous years now and so, yeah, , there are some similarities between the two programs at times it's really those key times of pre bloom and post bloom and variation that that we've traditionally. [00:14:34] Really locked in on some of the synthetic chemistries here [00:14:37] Craig Macmillan: And then also in June you have a Serenade Opti, which would be a Subtilis based material. And I believe that's also in your conventional in July. That's pretty standard practice, and that's an OMRI certified product, I believe. [00:14:52] Andrew Fels: Yes, yeah. [00:14:53] Craig Macmillan: There's some overlap there. It looks like the Rose Chaffer comes out around this time. [00:14:59] Andrew Fels: Yeah, probably it's not in front of me, but probably mid june [00:15:04] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's what you have here. In the traditional you've got a, a neonic, a sale. And then in the program, there's kind of a question mark here. What did you end up using in the, in the soft program for a roast chaffer? [00:15:19] Andrew Fels: Let me find it here [00:15:21] So we used neemix 4. 5 [00:15:26] Craig Macmillan: Nemix. I'm not familiar with that. Is that a Nemo based product? [00:15:28] Andrew Fels: Yeah, it's a neem oil [00:15:30] Craig Macmillan: And then in the traditional you have a neonic, a sail. Did you see a difference in Rose Chapter damage between the two? Because this is a pretty big difference here. [00:15:39] Andrew Fels: a pretty big difference in terms of [00:15:42] Craig Macmillan: Well, the modes of action obviously are very different. [00:15:45] Andrew Fels: Oh, sure, sure. Yeah, we had a little higher a little higher prevalence of rose chafers in mostly in the Pinot Noir treatments. Not so much in the Riesling, and I think that's largely because of black location. Traditionally the Pinot Noir block is our worst, one of our worst blocks in terms of rose chaffer rose chaffers are these beetles. [00:16:09] Of course, they're very similar to Japanese beetles for those listeners that, that may know that, but they really thrive in sandy soil, which is what we specialize here in northern Michigan, sandy based soil, right? [00:16:22] , and especially in un mowed fields. Right? We've really been trying to manage , our headland spaces like a prairie even more so upon joining SIP and, and learning more about making a comprehensive farm plan of, Of all of the land, right? And so we've really managed our, headlands and open fields like prairies which means minimal mowing, [00:16:47] like once a year is what we, we just mow to keep the autumn olive out. And and so we're trying to promote, you know, bird life and, and. All forms of life in these fields, which includes and sometimes an increase in rose chafers. [00:17:03] However, this 2024 was, was a. Fairly low pressure year. [00:17:09] And so I was very comfortable with, with sticking with this the soft insecticide. And we didn't feel like, you know, even though we saw this, this increase in pressure in the soft treatment, it wasn't surpassing the economic damage threshold that we are really keen. [00:17:27] And right. IPM [00:17:29] Craig Macmillan: So, true IPM. [00:17:31] Andrew Fels: IPM is very important, here, you know, where we have all these insects and it rains a lot and, you know, you got to really. Be ready to to, to scout and then react. [00:17:41] Craig Macmillan: Exactly. Yeah. And knowing what your economic injury limit is, I think it's huge. And your action threshold based on that. Tell me a little bit about the Spinosad based products. You have a couple in the soft that I assume are meant to be insecticides. [00:17:55] Andrew Fels: Yeah. The delegate. Yup. [00:17:56] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, Delegator and Trust. [00:17:59] Andrew Fels: I'll talk a little bit about intrepid as well. That's probably a foreign thing for any, any West coast listener, but that's intrepid is a it's a molting regulator and it's essentially for, in this case, for grapes, it's for grape berry moth. And this is an insect that is very difficult to do IPM on because there's a, there's kind of a morph that lives in northern Michigan that doesn't Go for the traps and so you can put traps out and it you just have no idea what's going on Because they just don't really care for the pheromones so they're really almost impossible to trap and I've talked numerous time with dr Rufus Isaacs about this and how do we you know get a handle on populations and you know They just can't get their traps to work up here. [00:18:50] We target with the intrepid, it's a, again, it's a molting regulator, so it just prevents them from developing, and it's very specific it's not a broad spectrum, so that goes on as a preventative where we have blocks near the woods, [00:19:05] because we see great berry moth coming in from wild, wild vines [00:19:10] that may or may not be in the woods, but we Where we see larva hatching is, is just kind of a perimeter. [00:19:16] So what we'll actually do is a perimeter spray. We don't even spray the whole block. We'll spray the outside row or two or three of each end. And then we just kind of blast it in. Along the, the other, you know, along the posts, the end posts. And that seems to work fairly well. [00:19:34] Craig Macmillan: Huh. [00:19:35] Andrew Fels: And then, as far as Delegate goes and Entrust those are Spinoza based products like you mentioned. [00:19:42] Those are primarily, you'll see that we put them on, well, I don't know if you can see timing, but we put them on. in September. Yeah, at the end of the season. September. [00:19:53] Yeah. Yeah. So, so those go on right around or right before even version and that is for drosophila [00:20:01] I think there's been some research recently from Cornell and then also Brock University in Canada. And I know also that Tim and Rufus have been doing trials here in Michigan as well. between the three of us out here in the, in the Northeast we're very focused on sour rot. [00:20:19] And so Michigan State along with these other folks have done these trials where they found that including an insecticide at veraison or, and then also at about 15 bricks significantly reduces sour rot infections. And that's because you're going after one of the vectors. [00:20:39] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. There's another material that I wasn't familiar with. I did a little bit of research on it. That's a product called Jet Ag, which is a hydrogen peroxide, a peracetic acid material. You have that in both the soft chemistry and your quote unquote conventional section. Is that a material you've used for a long time? [00:20:57] Andrew Fels: Yeah, we, I forget when exactly it started coming around I think probably 2015, 16 is when it was maybe released or made its way to northern Michigan and kind of coincided with with some sour rot. Issues that we have had off and on over the years with Pinot Noir or Vignole. And it's a, you know, it's a strong hydrogen peroxide. [00:21:23] It's a heavy oxidizer. It goes in and it, it, it cleans everything up. You know, it disinfects. And there's, there's some thinking as well that it, it'll kill the yeast. And some of those yeasts, the aroma is very attractive to spotted wing drosophila and regular drosophila. And so if you're, if you're kind of this is probably something that, that people, you know, that rely on native ferments might not want to hear, but you know, it really, it really disinfects the fruit which, which is key for You know, controlling sour rot. [00:21:59] And so we've used that over the years as both a preventative and a curative treatment. [00:22:05] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:22:06] Andrew Fels: I didn't actually end up using it this year because It essentially stopped raining it was almost west coast ian here in the fall. It stopped raining in August and it didn't rain again. [00:22:19] You know, I mean, aside from like just a, you know, very, very light mist that wouldn't even penetrate the soil deeper than a centimeter. You know, so we didn't get any appreciable rain. From, I think it was maybe August 5 or 10, all the way till November 31st, or sorry, October 31st. [00:22:39] Craig Macmillan: Actually, that raises a good question. So, what is the summer precipitation like, quote unquote, in a normal year or an average year? [00:22:48] Andrew Fels: Yeah, we've been having, [00:22:49] Craig Macmillan: is it? [00:22:52] Andrew Fels: it's so variable is the, you know, we keep coming back to that. Every season is different here and it's so true even in Northern Michigan we have seen climate change affecting our summer rainfalls. So, whereas, you know, traditionally, and I say traditionally as maybe like the 80s and 90s maybe even early 2000s, you would expect to see, you know, a good four to eight inches a month. [00:23:20] you know, less, less so in, you know, in July and August is walking that more like four inch. Four inches of precipitation and you can get that sometimes in two different days [00:23:33] Craig Macmillan: Wow. [00:23:34] Andrew Fels: And that could be all or it could be spread out, you know over over several 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 different events. we had a dry June a couple years ago, I think we, I think it rained two days and amount to much. [00:23:50] And 2023, all of May we had, it rained one day. It was very dry. And so it's really been a roller coaster here in terms of what to expect as far as precipitation comes, I mean during the growing season anyway. [00:24:08] Craig Macmillan: Mm hmm. [00:24:09] Andrew Fels: It's been a challenge to know, you kind of have to have all these tools ready, right? [00:24:13] You have to have your jet ag ready. [00:24:15] If you get a bunch of infections going you got to have some of these other products ready and just , be ready for anything essentially. [00:24:24] Craig Macmillan: That, I'm just kind of reeling, I'm from California, and so like four to eight inches of rain during the growing season, it sounds like a fungal disease disaster to me. I'm impressed that you can get a crop, a vinifera crop to, to harvest with those kind of conditions. [00:24:39] Let's talk about the sustainable conventional program a little bit. Again copper appears early which would make sense. Then the insecticide portion would be a sale. It's a neonicotinoid, and then you've got a couple of fungicides in here. [00:24:55] You've got sulfur, and you've got a boscalid. Then in July again you've got a subtilis, that's serenadopty, and the, the intrepid, the IGR. August, you've got another neonic rally, and then you've got a product called ranman, or ranman. Which is a Sazofenamide, again, traditional fungicide. And then Inspire Supert, verasion, very common. And then you've got the the JetAg and Delegate, which is an antispinosid based product. When I look at this, I see a lot of very safe, very smart, very rotated fungicide chemistries here. Was this the kind of program you were using previously? [00:25:34] Andrew Fels: Yeah. And you know, it always can change a little bit. Sometimes you can't get a certain product or you can't get it in time. [00:25:42] Uh, whereas, you know, you, you're planning to use X product for your, for your kind of like You know, your, your pea sized berry spray, let's say but you, all of a sudden you have a bunch of rainfall, you know, and, and so if I was planning to use Quintech, which only covers powdery all of a sudden I have this big wedding event that was just perfect for growing downy mildew I I might switch from Quintech to and vice versa, you know, if we're, if we're into some weather, that's really favorable, it's time to push more of those serenades and you know, we've used some of the other biologicals over the years as well and, and just trying, trying to go that way as much as possible, but, you know, sometimes the weather forces your hand, like, like it did this year, you'll see in my, In my program we went into some Randman and some [00:26:35] Zampro, and those are those are very specific to to downy mildew. [00:26:41] You know, but we're still, with those products, you know, they're more expensive than something like Kaptan, you know. We Can't spray that with sip and we didn't spray it before because we don't want it on our fingers [00:26:56] The vineyard you and I don't want it in our lives So so we're always trying to go the ran man route, even though it's a little pricier, but it's very Target specific for Downey and so, you know with all the rains that we had in June and July and early July we felt like the smart play and we did start seeing some downy mildew cropping up much earlier than normal. [00:27:21] If, if we see it at all, that is. in that, at that point you want to make the call, you know, Hey, I want to get out in front of this thing. I don't want downy on my fruit. You know, if you start seeing it on growing tips, I think it was the 4th of July or the 2nd of July or something we were scouting and we were getting a lot of rain at that point and it was very humid and it was just like rain every other day for about a week there and it's like you gotta pivot and, and make the move to something that's really going to provide. control there. [00:27:52] For the soft program at that point, we were trying to use, I believe we use serenade, you know, which is more broad spectrum as far as biologicals go. We knew we wanted to keep it going after the, , the Downey with the soft chemistry. And that's why we got into the orange oil as well. [00:28:10] Craig Macmillan: Oh, interesting. [00:28:11] Andrew Fels: to, Yeah, that's, that wasn't in the proposal that I sent you, but we did pivot. I couldn't get. The cinerate it was, I was told it was on the West coast, growers were hoarding it and none of it, none of it made it over this way. I was really hoping to get my hands on some of it. [00:28:28] I've already pre ordered my 2025 cinerate. [00:28:32] Craig Macmillan: And Cinerate is a cinnamon oil based product, right? [00:28:36] Andrew Fels: Correct. Yeah. Cinnamon oil. oil. Yeah, it's another oil. [00:28:39] Yeah. Yeah. It's another one of those kind of antimicrobial oils, if you will. Um, So we pivoted to, to orange oil and thyme oil. TimeGuard has been, is a product that's been out for a number of years now. We've used it before, , we haven't really relied on it as much in the past. As, as we did with this soft treatment. [00:28:59] Craig Macmillan: Tell me a little bit more about what the outcomes have been at this point. We talked about the the pinot noir a little bit. We talked about the Rose Shafter showing up there a little bit more. At, at the end of the day, the end of the season. How did you feel about it? How did you feel about comparing the two [00:29:15] Andrew Fels: you know, it felt, it felt really good. It seemed like the soft program kept pace with the conventional for the most part. In the Pinot Noir, we had we had some more rose chaffer damage, of course, but without doing a, a full on research trial, it's hard to say that it was the treatment alone because of, as I mentioned, the location was a big factor. [00:29:38] With the downy mildew, it seemed to be a little more prevalent, certainly in the Pinot Noir on the, on the soft program that is but it never got to the point and I was, I was always ready to go in with whatever I needed to, because we don't want to have a defoliation and not being able to ripen fruit, you know, the fruit and, and especially in such a great growing year. [00:30:01] we never really resorted to. You know, breaking the glass and, and grabbing the ax and running out there and like, and it was emergency, you know, we never, we never had to do that. There was a moment there in July where, you know, where would the downy pressure we thought maybe. [00:30:19] Maybe we would have to abandon it, but then things dried up and we kept after things with with some of these, these things like thyme oil and orange oil. Getting good coverage with them is so important. But getting those on at the right time really seemed to provide enough control. [00:30:37] Craig Macmillan: Actually that's a, that's an excellent point. Let's talk about the phenology a little bit. How, for the varieties that you're growing, how big are these canopies getting? What's the spacing that they're planted on? How many gallons per acre are you using in your spray applications to get good coverage? [00:30:54] Andrew Fels: Yeah, so for the purpose of the project I stuck with 50 gallons an acre throughout the season. Which even, even for the conventional portion, traditionally I'll, I'll start with 30 gallons an acre aside from the dormant spray, of course, but like, you know, early season sprays until the canopy becomes a little denser, , I'll be at 30 gallons an acre and then probably mid July post bloom, right around bloom, perhaps , we'll ramp up the conventional to 50 gallons as well. [00:31:26] For the purposes of this, we just did 50 gallons across the board, both treatments. a lot of the canopy is well, it's really all VSP except for the vignole. Vignole is high wire cordone. And then we're talking nine by five spacing. The vinifera as well, which is pretty common around here. Double geo some spur pruning. We've really developed a kind of a hybrid system where we do a little bit of, we kind of mix cane and spur , , and alternate those in, in some of our venefera programs. [00:31:57] Craig Macmillan: And in, on the same plant? [00:31:59] Andrew Fels: Yeah. Sometimes. [00:32:01] Yeah. [00:32:01] Craig Macmillan: one side, gator the other. [00:32:03] Andrew Fels: What that does for us you know, where we get. Or we can at least, you know, and we can, sometimes we can lose a whole cane , or a lot of buds. I don't want to get too in the weeds on, on what that system is, but, but it's really developed around being able to quickly replace and adapt to cold damage. [00:32:24] And so if we need to go in and cut a trunk out, we've already got a cane growing from down low, if that makes any sense. [00:32:31] Craig Macmillan: No, that does make sense. And it's a practice that I'm familiar with from other areas in the Midwest, the North, the Northeast. Very, very smart. But that's a very different canopy architecture than you might find someplace that's all VSP. Or, you know, a double canopy situation maybe like in New York. [00:32:48] How comfortable are you now? After going through this, it sounds like you liked the softer program, you feel you got good control on most things. But if I'm understanding you correctly, you're not afraid to keep some other, other tools in the toolbox, basically. [00:33:05] Andrew Fels: Right. Yeah. And I think a big purpose of this program was to investigate some of these products. I want to highlight Problad Verde as well. [00:33:14] That's. Another one that's been out there and we've used it before as well. You know, I did a trial with Tim Miles's lab on and Rufus doing a sour rot trial in Pinot Noir in the past with pro, and it was just kind of a end of the season application of Problad with I believe we use delegate or in trust. [00:33:34] I can't remember. One of them and, this project, the SARE project was really looking at problad as being more of the backbone , of it. And, and so we ended up using that for the soft treatment pre bloom, post bloom. And then again, at version, because it has similar to jet egg, it's kind of a disinfectant, right? [00:33:57] It's this lupine seed extract that, that is a. That is a disinfectant and so it's going to go in, but because it, it's advertised anyway as having some systemic activity, [00:34:09] Craig Macmillan: Mm [00:34:10] Andrew Fels: systemic properties, that's, that's key for us in the east here. Because, hey, if we get a half inch of rain, well, it's still kind of in the leaf or it's still in some of that green flower tissue. [00:34:24] Before it opens up and blooms and so, really working problad in as instead of a kind of just end of the season toy it's really became, became the backbone of the tritus control for us in this, in this trial. And then again, looking at some of these oils, I think there's a lot of promise for. the orange oil in particular, I've, I've been seeing more and more research coming out about how you know, it does work on Downy and we did see that you know, even though we had an increase in Downy infection man, it could have been a lot worse. It was still at an acceptable level. [00:35:02] And so I think, I think I'm going to feel more and more comfortable using those products. [00:35:07] Craig Macmillan: You've demonstrated to yourself. And that's what the, that's how it works, and that's what everybody needs, to have some confidence. Which I think is really great, I was very impressed by the idea of trying things that maybe are not widely used, were not widely tested outside of maybe the West Coast, and to be able to show efficacy on your property, I think is really important. [00:35:27] I think it's one thing many of us have learned about softer materials. They may or may not work depending on what your pressure is. And that can vary region to region, but it can also vary within a region. It definitely can vary year to year, so having that flexibility that you've built into this program is very admirable. What would you say are the big picture benefits of the soft pesticide program at this point? [00:35:48] Andrew Fels: Hopefully just to increase awareness of, of how they can be effective for folks here in Michigan or, or similar climates, New York and Canada, I should say I don't think , this SARE project alone is, is going to be any sort of groundbreaking news, but I think it's just another verification and if we start to have more and more of them people will believe more and more in these products because it's just, it's at that point, it's word of mouth, right? [00:36:21] It's more and more growers are starting to back it. And, or experiment with it at least and, and see results, I think a lot of growers are very word of mouth oriented anyway. [00:36:34] So, uh, so it's very important, like, Oh, Hey, what did you try last year? And I think there's plenty of that going on in our area. [00:36:42] A bunch of us anyway, we seem to network pretty well and, and trust each other. , Oh, I use this at this key time and it really proved effective. So I think just bringing more and more awareness to these soft programs or these soft products, I should say. , and I can't really speak to the sustainability of. Farming lupin seed for for a fungicide product, you know, I can't, speak to that, but I want to believe that it's, it's a more sustainable product than, you know something that was made in a factory and, and might have petrochemicals in it. [00:37:19] Craig Macmillan: Well, it might have resistance issues as well, I think is one of the key things. And by the way, both programs I thought were very intelligent. I think like in terms of the frack rotations in the sustainable one, I thought that was really well done. Is, is there one thing that you would tell growers? [00:37:35] What's the one takeaway you would tell people from this project? You just kind of touched on one, but is there a message here for people? [00:37:43] Andrew Fels: I think the message is, you know, that we have to be really careful in crafting our. Spray program to the season that we have. If we were getting A lot more rain in September than what we ended up having I mean, we were, we were in pretty severe drought here. I think the soft program could still work. [00:38:03] But you have to choose the product and probably apply it much more frequently. You know, you have to go in and respond to those rains. , or even maybe perhaps be ready to pivot to something that is synthetic and systemic and curative. You know, maybe you have to go in with a hammer, but that doesn't mean that, you know, the majority of this growing season can't be done in a very soft way. [00:38:30] And so we're really just responding to that weather. But I think if this is our focus , to use these softer chemistries on things that we're going to drink or eat, even if it's vegetables, I think that these products are becoming better and better and there's becoming more and more of them, which is really encouraging to see you know, 10 years ago, maybe we had serenade and And you know, a couple of other products, but now, now there's, they're really becoming prevalent. [00:38:58] And so I think the take home is, is crafting that spray program with these new found tools that we have. Problads, , your crop, , your what, what should I call them? Like your aromatic oils, lack of better term, like orange oil, thyme oil, cinnamon oil. You know, I think these things do have a place. [00:39:17] Craig Macmillan: Where can people find out more about you? [00:39:19] Andrew Fels: Well, they can visit ShadyLaneCellers. com and there's stuff in there about our farm and in what we do and where we are, who we are a little bit. And then also there will be, and I could get you this information if you're interested, so this spring meeting where we're going to present the results of this believe we'll have a Zoom link option. [00:39:43] Craig Macmillan: As a reference date, this is being recorded in February of 2025. And so spring meeting will be coming up in a few months from here. I'm not sure when this will air, but even anything is fantastic. So I really want to thank you for being on the episode. Our guest today was Andy Fless, he's Vineyard Manager at Shadyland Cellars and you've been a great guest. Hey, thanks for being on the podcast. [00:40:03] Andrew Fels: My pleasure, Craig. Thanks a lot for having me. [00:40:08] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by Martinez Orchards. Martinez Orchards is one of the most trusted and respected names in the nursery business. They have earned that reputation through years of hard work, honesty, integrity, and a commitment to their customers. They provide support with their knowledgeable salespeople and highly experienced production team. They know successful plantings allow them to fulfill their promises, and they strive to build lasting relationships with their customers based on a foundation of mutual steadfast trust. [00:40:40] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Andy at Shady Lane Plus. Sustainable wine Growing podcast episodes 117. Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light 219 Intelligent sprayers to improve fungicide applications and save money. And 235, battling fungicide resistance with glove sampling. [00:41:03] If you liked this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the [email protected] slash podcast and you can reach us at [email protected]. [00:41:16] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team. Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Similar Podcasts

Vineyard Underground

Fritz Westover

GuildSomm Podcast

GuildSomm

SOMM TV

Wine for Normal People

Elizabeth Schneider

Wine Enthusiast Podcast

Wine Enthusiast Magazine

Wine Blast with Susie and Peter

Susie and Peter, Masters of Wine

Inside Winemaking - the art and science of growing grapes and crafting wine

Jim Duane: Winemaker, Grape-grower, and Wine Educator

Beyond Organic Wine

organicwinepodcast

Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus

Lemonada Media

Marketplace

All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg

All-In Podcast, LLC

The Daily

The New York Times

Planet Money

NPR

SmartLess

Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes, Will Arnett

Freakonomics Radio

Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher

Legal Disclaimer

Pod Engine is not affiliated with, endorsed by, or officially connected with any of the podcasts displayed on this platform. We operate independently as a podcast discovery and analytics service.

All podcast artwork, thumbnails, and content displayed on this page are the property of their respective owners and are protected by applicable copyright laws. This includes, but is not limited to, podcast cover art, episode artwork, show descriptions, episode titles, transcripts, audio snippets, and any other content originating from the podcast creators or their licensors.

We display this content under fair use principles and/or implied license for the purpose of podcast discovery, information, and commentary. We make no claim of ownership over any podcast content, artwork, or related materials shown on this platform. All trademarks, service marks, and trade names are the property of their respective owners.

While we strive to ensure all content usage is properly authorized, if you are a rights holder and believe your content is being used inappropriately or without proper authorization, please contact us immediately at [email protected] for prompt review and appropriate action, which may include content removal or proper attribution.

By accessing and using this platform, you acknowledge and agree to respect all applicable copyright laws and intellectual property rights of content owners. Any unauthorized reproduction, distribution, or commercial use of the content displayed on this platform is strictly prohibited.

Recent articles